The Clock’s Gonna Run Out: Leaving a Meaningful Legacy with Executive Coach John M. DeMarco
Interview By Brandi Fleck
John enjoying an evening out with his wife. Photo provided by John M. DeMarco.
This is a transcript of the conversation between myself, Brandi Fleck, Host of the Human Amplified podcast, and John M. DeMarco, a Nashville-based executive coach and writer who deals with themes of legacy professionally and personally.
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Table of Contents:
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What does being human mean to you?
I love that you asked that consistent question of everyone. For me, it's being in touch with what's happening inside my body, actually feeling things in real time, like having my head and my body be connected, right? Rather than just being lost in thought, because you can be lost in thought, obviously still be human, right, using the brain.
But I find that I feel most alive when there's this, I don't know, this symphony between my breath, my mind, my body. And when I'm able to generate that symphony, right, through mindfulness or meditation, or just those wonderful moments of flow or being in the zone, I don't know, I just feel this deeper joy and sense of purpose and excitement. And that's what I feel most alive, and therefore that's what I feel most human.
Not sure how that aligns with what other guests say, but so it comes to mind for me.
It's interesting because, so I've been asking people this question since like the fall of 2017, and it has changed over the years. And it's really interesting because people are starting to talk about their bodies and getting back to the the basics of reconnecting. And I find it so interesting.
There's this like this connective tissue, right? Between conversations of different people from all different backgrounds across time.
Yeah. And I love that you used the word symphony. It reminds me of that too. It's like all the different pieces and parts come together to make the whole, and it's this beautiful thing. So I love that.
Everybody, I would love to welcome to the show today, John Demarco.
John, thank you so much for being here and welcome.
Thank you, Brandi. It was great to be here, a real honor.
Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to our conversation today. And before we jump in though, can you just…
Give our listeners a rundown on who you are and what you do.
Yeah, certainly. I'm a professional executive coach. My coach, executives, managers, high potential individual contributors.
I have to do a lot of 360 coaching and assessment coaching. And I spent 18 years as an internal coach within HR departments, primarily in technology and healthcare. And now I'm running my own full-time coaching practice outside of my home base in Nashville and anywhere else that has an internet or an airport.
Awesome, awesome. And aren't you an author as well?
I am. I've been writing since I was a kid. It's always been my first love.
I was a journalist in my 20s. I always did a lot of creative writing growing up and have written and published three books and do a lot of articles and scripts. And pretty much, I love creating content and always have.
Awesome, awesome. So I know some of the things we're going to talk about today are things that you work on with some of your coaching clients, but also you sort of work these themes into your characters when you're writing fiction. Is that true?
I do. That's really interesting. The last six or seven years or so, it's not like a, I wouldn't call that an era, but it seems that somewhere around 2017, 2018, there was a shift toward reading even more of like certain kinds of books, mindfulness books by authors who were different than me, more diverse backgrounds, and then really beginning to lean into reading about technology and AI and virtual reality and all those things, and just kind of connecting some of those dots.
And the last time I published any work of fiction was early 2018. And I have found that I've been living with this group of characters that I first started dreaming up around 2017. 2018.
And they have moved into various different potential writing projects. And about three and a half, four years ago, they all finally found a home in this novel that I've been planning and researching really since late 2020. And it's amazing how I kept thinking I was going to start to first draft within a year after that.
And it's wild just how much things have developed, how much the characters have changed, how much I've changed, and just my thinking has iterated. I feel like I say this every few months. I'm pretty close now to actually starting your first draft.
I do have a very robust outline. I know what I think is going to happen, which, of course, you learn so much about your characters and the story of yourself along the way, which is exciting and kind of terrifying, because it could suck. And that's why I started it.
If I say one word, it might suck. I can say that, right?
Yeah, you can say that. But I'm sure it won't suck. But that, like, putting yourself out there as a writer does have a certain vulnerability that comes with it, because those characters seem like they're pieces of you.
Would you agree?
I think any fiction writer, like, you know, just build people out of thin air completely, right? Each of the... there's really four key characters, just one main and three very high-level supporting.
And each of them, even though as a whole they're very different from me, they each have parts of me. And what's been also kind of fun is, and this is where it connects back to some of my work, in that these themes that I've been thinking and writing a lot about in terms of things I put on my website or on LinkedIn, some of these different topics, like around AI and impermanence and meaning and business and career sustainability, these are also different themes that my characters are wrestling with as part of the storyline. And that was not something that I planned out.
I just realized that, oh, wow, these themes gradually are emerging and they tie together. And because I'm both a fiction writer and a nonfiction writer and speaker and everything else, I want to explore these in multiple directions. And of course, that's the challenge, right?
I have to make sure my novel doesn't read a group of blogs or something like that or essays, right? It's got to be a story, right? It's got to have a story hook and keep readers curious about what's going to happen next.
But I just love being able to kind of take just some areas where I've been thinking deeply and processing and learning and populate them to different parts of my work. Including potentially, depending on the client, these could be things that clients bring up as things that they're wrestling with.
Yeah, for sure. I love this multi-dimensionality, if I said that correctly, that you're exemplifying. And so maybe we can dive into that a little bit.
And I'm really sort of excited to see if any of the pieces and parts sort of come together as we discuss this, but we'll see how it unfolds. So you mentioned the topic of impermanence. And I know that like in the real world right now, people are dealing with lots of transitions, there's uncertainty in the world.
So it seems like a really relevant topic.
What does it mean to manage expectations around impermanence?
It's something I didn't really start thinking deeply about until about five years ago. Somewhere around 12, 13, 14 years ago, I started reading books about mindfulness. Still had mainly a kind of a superficial understanding.
But a little more than five years ago, I was on a flight to Italy with my wife, and I brought along a book by Thich Nhat Hanh, the late Buddhist monk, an amazing person and thought leader. And it was a book that was really kind of a deep overview of Buddhism. And while I had been studying and trying, with very limited success, to practice mindfulness, I really hadn't gone deep into the source literature, if you will.
Buddhism is ultimately a toolbox. It's a set of teachings, and there's different perspectives on it. Some see Buddhism as a religion.
Some see it, like I tend to, as more of a toolbox, things, right? Very, you know, very universal things that you can apply to almost any context, any belief system. But what struck me in that book was when Thich Nhat Hanh said that there's something deeper to the Buddhist teaching than like the Four Noble Truths, right?
And Noble Eightfold Path, which, you know, Buddhism is most known for. And I was like, reading, I'm like, whoa, what could be deeper than that? And he starts talking about impermanence.
And it's one of those things that sort of hides in plain sight. Like we know about it, yet we don't know about it. And what I came to realize or what I thought was always there, but that I learned to appreciate much more, is just how everything and everyone is constantly changing.
Like every second, right, we've got cellular turnover happening by the millions in our bodies every second, right? We're processing and we're digesting, right? Kids and adolescents are growing and shaping and creating new neurological pathways.
Plants are constantly evolving. Animals are interacting and changing their habitats, and rivers and oceans are causing erosion and kind of creating new little pathways. The earth is shifting.
Light and shadow, nothing is really ever fully standing still. And really, that cuts across the board. I've tried to rack my brain and think about something that stays the same from one moment to the next, but I really haven't been able to come up with it.
Maybe you will, and be like, hey, John, I've thought of this. And so we know that. We know that none of this is going to last, from the possessions to our careers, to the people we love, to our lives as well.
Even if technology and advancements might extend that life, at some point, the clock is going to run out. So that impermanence is always, it's this undercurrent that's kind of always there, whether we acknowledge it or not. And it shapes so much of how we engage reality and engage others.
And what has worked for me is just, I'm constantly writing out by hand some of these key practices and mantras and things in journals. And I'll write it out, I'll use it for a while, and then I'll rewrite it. And just, I've probably done it, I don't know, 40 or 50 times, you know, for whatever reason.
And I like having those little notes to look at, right, to keep me grounded. And based on what I've come to understand and what I'm trying to do with very fleeting success is to manage my expectations around impermanence by just being willing to, first of all, acknowledge the reality that things are impermanent. And because things are impermanent, there's really two other things that I think are important to realize.
That because nothing lasts, nothing is ever fully satisfying. If you think about human condition, we're always a little bit restless, right? We're kind of always looking for that, you know, for that next hit of experience, that next opportunity, that next text message, that next emoji or like on something that we posted.
Whenever we're fully satisfied, there's always part of us that is kind of like, isn't there more or really? Is this... I think it's because we know that deep inside that things don't last forever.
And in addition, here's where it gets really deep. Because nothing lasts, ultimately that means that there's no separate being or separate self in the sense that ultimately we're all connected to all other living beings. I mean, God, we come from the stardust after all.
And so how can we be this permanent... How can we be this separate self if we're this impermanent gathering of water, air, fire was the fourth element.
Earth?
Earth, yes, yes. And it's hard for us to embrace the reality that things are going to change, that people are going to die, that we're going to die, that jobs and career will go away. I also think it's hard for us to get our arms from the fact that we were never fully separate from each other.
And therefore, when we condemn someone else, we're in some way condemning ourselves because there's not truly a separation we want there to be. And it seems so important for us to have an identity that's unique, where we feel like we are this solidified kind of permanent kind of person. And what I've learned and what I've noticed, certainly in my own life experience, in terms of managing our expectations around impermanence, when we don't manage them well, we are giving in to things like greed and selfishness.
We want things to last. We want to be this separate, special kind of unique kind of person. We want to be fully satisfied.
And that leads to sometimes poor decisions and how we interact with people in relationships and choices that we make, things that we use to escape in unhealthy kinds of ways, like addictions. And in addition to having that sense of greed, of wanting things to be a certain way, we can also, when we feel like we're threatened, something that we want is either not being given to us or there's a fear of being taken away, right? We get caught up in that fear, anger, aversion, opting toward others.
And again, the impact that has on relationships and our careers. And sometimes the third way that we can poorly manage our expectations running permanence is just being flat out delusional. Like we have convinced ourselves that this is going to be a certain way, and it's going to stay a certain way.
And then all of a sudden, you know, the rug has pulled off from under us, and we're just shocked, right? Because we haven't really managed impermanence by being willing to see it. And I have a counter, you know, observation of how we can effectively manage impermanence, as opposed to what I just shared.
Do you want me to go into that now?
Sure. Well, and like, while you were talking, I was thinking…
I feel like one way to effectively manage impermanence is to go with the flow. What would you say about it?
Yeah, and I like the way you phrased that, go with the flow, because I think that really ties into what I see as a healthier, more effective way to manage your expectations. And that is through embracing what is, right? Being willing to see things for what they are, and do what we can to influence things to be a certain way, but to learn how to let go of the need to control outcomes of every single aspect of our lives, right?
Again, knowing that in the end, all this is going away, so it's kind of like, okay, gosh, how do we make the most of it while we're here? How can we spread the most love and kindness and compassion and joy? And how can we live in this place of equanimity where we've got this more balanced approach to things?
The other clarity I've been able to get the last few years around mindfulness grounded in the teachings of Buddhism is that when we're practicing mindfulness, we are honing in on impermanence. And when I say honing in, we are noticing how everything is arising and everything is passing away. The in-breath, the out-breath, again, nothing is staying the same.
And we can learn to begin to sort of have this sort of curiosity, observation without feeling destroyed or threatened by it. It's by, okay, this is reality, right? I think last everything is arising and passing away.
And what's wild is that you think that could maybe lead you to disillusionment or nihilism or just this sense of, oh, my gosh, this life sucks. How do I get out? But I have found, at least, the more I lean into that, to being able to be able to see things as they are, impermanent, rising, passing away, I don't know, there's this undercurrent of joy that things start to feel more meaningful, that this sense of, there's a sense of peace.
And that is especially amplified through this practice that, I always butcher these words about the Brahma, the Haras. I think it's how you pronounce it. It's sometimes called like the before immeasurables.
And it's a set of mantras that, you've probably heard some of these or maybe practiced them, but it's around four areas. Mantras around loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic or altruistic joy, depending on, you know, you're talking to the writer and equanimity. And what I am consistently reciting and really leaning into these mantras, that is a way to not just cope, but really thrive in a world where nothing lasts.
And it's a way to both really nurture yourself, but also just have these deep abiding feelings of love and respect and kindness for other people, which is not always easy to do in day-to-day life.
Yeah. I really love how you connected impermanence to meaning-making or having a meaningful life. And I think we'll go there in just a second.
But before we do, how does this philosophy or this deep thinking that you do, I'm assuming just for your own personal management of impermanence, but…
How does this look in a coaching relationship?
Yeah. I mean, the important thing to know about coaching is, you know, as a coach, the coach doesn't bring the agenda to the table. You know, the client brings the topic, right?
I start every coaching session with some combination of what would you like to talk about today or what are you hoping to walk away with today? And there are times when a client will bring up a topic that is related in some way to mindfulness, either directly or tangentially. There are also moments if a client is talking about things like feeling lots of stress or even if they're using expressions like they're having a hard time really feeling connected to their body or they've tried meditating.
I just try to be aware just like I am on any other topic that might surface like, oh, okay, this person is curious about how to live more mindfully. And so if they are surfacing that topic, there could be times, there have been times where I would ask permission to first of all explore it more. And then there's times when with the client's permission where I've led them through like a brief activity, like a breathing exercise or like a body scan.
I don't brand myself as like a mindfulness coach. Mindfulness is a tool that is there in my coaching toolbox that I will bring out when it's appropriate for the client based on what the client is.
Gotcha. And that's really interesting to me obviously because I'm also a coach. And so something that comes up for my clients quite a bit is legacy.
Like it's on their mind. And it doesn't necessarily have to be on their mind because they're older. Like I've noticed that it comes up for all the different ages that I coach at certain points in time.
And so, what are your thoughts on legacy?
Is it important? Does it have to do with not dealing with impermanence?
Or what's there?
Yeah. I was thinking about that question of yours as I was preparing this interview. And I keep thinking of one of the lines from Hamilton, which I played that musical so many times.
It's like forever stuck in my brain. But there's this one refrain and song that talks about you have no control, who lives, who dies, who tells your story. And I think that there's a lot of truth in that.
First of all, whether we want to or not, each of us has or will have some kind of legacy. It's impossible to go through this life for any period of time, and that impact other people or organizations in some way. Good, bad, indifferent.
And so it's sort of like I had a professor in graduate school who was talking about... It was a class on public speaking, but he pointed to something larger, saying in terms of communication, that you cannot not communicate. Every second you're around other people, your body language, your tone, your inflection, whatever it happens to be, you are communicating something.
And sort of like with organizations, with branding, every brand is always telling a story. Every organization is known for something, and every individual, because we have first-null brands, we are in some way always communicating our value or lack thereof. So I see legacy in the same kind of way.
We touch the people around us. And what can be tough is, we know each of us has made some very deep positive contributions in the lives of others. And then each of us has messed up as well.
One of the challenging things for me as I've gotten older is learning to live with the fact that there's some people that have crossed paths with me where my legacy might not be something that endures in a positive way with them. And there's nothing I can do about that. Just being willing to live with the imperfection, the imperfections within impermanence, and to try to focus on, gosh, how do I spread as much love and compassion and goodness as I can?
Knowing that it's not going to land with everybody, but that I can have a sense of peace and meaning, that I did my part to try to make the world just a little bit better. Just try to bring just a little more kindness to the world. So that's how I view legacy.
What's really interesting there is how you brought the multi-dimensionality into the discussion about legacy, because I think I've always looked at it as we have one legacy that we leave behind. But what's cool about what you just said is that your legacy changes depending on who you're talking to that you've impacted. So you could have like a million legacies because you've crossed the paths with so many different people in your lifetime.
I don't want just one!
What if it's bad? Yeah. Yeah.
That's really interesting to think about.
I mean, ultimately, like these things we're talking about, I mean, they, you know, there is this connective tissue right between all of them. And I found, I mean, I found it out preparing. I was writing out my thoughts and putting them in clusters and buckets, and then I'm drawing little arrows back and forth.
And like, oh, these ultimately come back to the same thing, right? How do we try to create meaning and spread joy and love in a world where nothing lasts?
Does the legacy last?
The legacy, I think legacies that are passed on last, right?
Like through tradition?
Traditions or, you know, memories, right? Like, I mean, there's, you know, my father is no longer living. And so my daughter's, you know, just knew him briefly when they were little, but I've been able to share stories, right?
About him. So in some sense, his legacy lives on. And if they choose, if they have children someday, hopefully not for a long, long time, they may pass on those stories.
As a writer, we always hope that our stuff will be read, certainly in our lifetimes, but after we're gone. So, you know, some legacies, you know, we'll adore some pieces, maybe some fragments. And there's probably some things that won't.
There's probably some things we do or say that will be long forgotten. And again, learn to live with that, with that tension, right? You know, this learning to let go of control and influence things that we can, but ultimately being willing to accept things as they are instead of being tormented by them.
Can you tell me a little bit more, and I did not plan to ask you this, but can you tell me a little bit more on acceptance and…
How does somebody even start to accept what is as opposed to being tormented by it?
That's been my lifelong journey, Brandi. I think the more, you know, people process and learn grow in different ways. You know, for me, it's always been not just reading, but especially writing things out in response to what I'm learning, a book or a film or another person or the stuff that's bubbling inside my own head.
And so what has helped me is just to constantly be writing out and processing things and looking at it and trying to see connections and trying to eventually stop repeating, you know, the same behaviors or, you know, or thought patterns. And I've especially leaned into, you know, areas of pain, right? I mean, things that have been harder for me to accept, right?
You know, ways in which I've, you know, times let my children down or ways in which I have, you know, hurt others and, you know, relationships, you know, by first of all, being willing to look at it and say, okay, yes, these things actually happened, right? These are the things that have happened in my life that have brought me joy. These were things that have brought me sorrow or anguish or have, you know, have brought that to others as well.
And just through, I don't know, through just reflecting on them regularly across time, processing them sometimes in therapy sessions or with family or friends, just kind of learning how to, first of all, acknowledge that it's the truth that, you know, these, right, instead of trying to like, you know, how online we cultivate these personas, right, social media and everything, trying to not have that cultivated persona inside my own head, being willing to kind of keep it real, at least inside my head, right? Certainly, we don't need to talk to everything, you know, talk to the world about everything, you know, that we feel about ourselves. Again, that's what's been helpful to me, right, to really start to see it and to own it, and then through, like, you know, the practices around, you know, some of the things like, you know, practicing compassion and kindness and equanimity.
I mean, it's a lifelong process, because I'm really, I'm trying to unlearn decades and decades of certain wiring and, you know, neural pathways, because all this is still very recent, you know, in my life. I mean, I mentioned, you know, began to explore and read about mindfulness 12, 14 years ago, but really wasn't until about five years ago, as I was saying, that I really kind of started to dig deeper into it and to really try to be consistent. And it's crazy, the stuff that sticks in our memory, some of the tension and pain that we hold in our body, just stuff that plops back in our head, right?
Some of that self-condemnation that we were, you know, already throwing at ourselves when we were teenagers, young adults, some of that still hanging around. The acceptance maybe isn't an event, but an ongoing process, kind of like everything else, right? The only thing arriving is hopefully getting closer.
So, like, my wheels are turning here because I'm like, ooh, how does this relate to impermanence and legacy? And, but it all, I mean, like, when you're talking about how it's a process, it reminds me of what you said in the beginning for even managing and accepting impermanence.
Yeah. I mean, it may be the central problem that we face as human beings. I mean, I don't know if it gets any bigger than the fact that we're all going to die.
Like, there's that. Mindfulness is hard.
It can be. And I feel like it's a really beautiful process, even though it's hard.
Yeah, there's... When you attempt it just a little bit, and you keep at it, there's... It's like you're touching some kind of goodness.
You're like... I think about what Martin Luther King Jr. said about this moral arc in the universe that bends toward justice. You tap into this acceptance of things as they are, practice mindfulness.
And I'm feeling right now just while we're talking, right? This sense of this undercurrent of peace that is trying to break in and become part of the dialogue of all the things that are going through our mind at any given moment. I can't fully put my finger on it, right?
My spiritual life has a wall to the point where I'm really not sure what kind of being may or may not be out there. But as I press into this, these things we've been talking about, I just feel some kind of abiding energy or presence, some kind of deeper sense that there's a small part of something that really could be quite majestic and wonderful. And I don't want to miss out on experiencing that while I'm here.
Yeah.
I'm not sure I'm going to go with that.
But that's okay. That's really beautiful. I got full body chills while you were talking. So let's pivot a little bit into making meaning.
Why does making meaning matter and where does the meaning come from?
I think the meaning comes from paying attention to the stuff that helps us to feel most vibrant and excited amid this, I don't want to call it a sinking ship, but in this temporary Earth suit that we're wearing.
The meat suit.
And this maybe ties in with kind of identifying where our key values are. I noticed that when I have these three foundational values, and like all of our values, they've morphed and evolved over time. Sometimes there's six or seven of them, right?
But I've noticed that these three seem to have endured. And for me, that's self-care, which certainly includes mindfulness and every other aspect of, you know, mind, body, spirit, care, relationships, and vocation, right? Sense of purpose.
When I'm attentive, right, to really nurturing those areas that I value, I'm not as caught up in my head and, like, you know, worrying about not getting what I want or, you know, losing what I already have or feeling like other people are, you know, the enemy somehow or that I'm somehow special and excluded from, you know, certain types of suffering. It's not like I'm catching myself in the moment going, oh, this is meaningful. I'm having meaning right now.
It's more just noticing over time by practicing self-care relationships, vocation, and vocation is a term I use very loosely because it doesn't just, to me, cover the work that I do, right? My professional work has always felt like a calling in some way. I've always wanted to transform the world in some way through communication and, you know, engage in others.
But, you know, part of it is also just, you know, experiencing, you know, the arts. I love jazz. I love music.
I like going to the museums. I don't always love it, but I appreciate it. Just the things that tend to nourish me, I don't know, maybe that could fall under self-care too, right?
At some point, things ultimately don't just stay like in one bucket, right? Or in one category. If you're willing to embrace the long haul of however long this journey is, right, this marathon, pay attention to the stuff that really just gives you that abiding sense of peace and excitement and joy that gets you in the zone.
And just do as much as you can to position yourself to experience those things, right? Again and again and again. And hopefully as we're doing that, again, everyone's circumstances are different, but if you're able to lean into those things each day, then you have those little moments of meaning.
Those are wonderful moments.
What is meaning?
I don't know. What do you think it is? I mean, it's funny.
When I think about my values of self-care, relationships and vocation, I feel like those values ultimately inform and drive what I really want. And that's a tough thing to kind of get very concise about. I really want that, given all this.”
“And what I notice is that I use the words joy, meaning and peace kind of interchangeably. And that's, again, that's kind of over time, right? Over just the struggles and failures and setbacks that I feel I enjoy the human experience.
My humanity feels amplified when there's moments of joy or meaning or peace happening. And I don't think I really know how to differentiate them. I mean, I'm sure others could, right?
There's obviously very clear dictionary definitions and all that. But they kind of blend together for me. I don't know where joy ends and meaning begins or where meaning ends and peace begins.
It's just this kind of abiding sense of, yes, that's meaning.
I mean, like, oh, wow, I'm kind of learning just as we're, as I'm wrestling with that question, what is meaning? Because I don't know if I've ever fully tried to put it into like a sentence, right? I've been thinking about things that create meaning and things that have or don't have, you know, the quote lasting meaning.
I guess meaning is any experience where we just feel like part of something bigger and and that that life is worth it. Oh, I really and maybe we'll stick around and be loving and give it our all.
Yeah, yeah, I really like that explanation.
I just thought it up.
Yeah, well, you know, I've never really given too much intentional thought to the answer to that either. And so like, if I were to think about it, I think it for me, it has to do with purpose. Yeah, you know, like meaning is purpose.
Well, what is purpose and why does it matter? And then that ties back into joy and, you know, peace and being part of something bigger than ourselves, which goes back to your beginning point of oneness in a way. It's just all, yeah, it's a lot to think about.
But I think a takeaway for our listeners is that if you can fully feel in your body and in your being a yes, then there's some kind of meaning there. It's important.
I'm not sure you would like, you know, quantify that and, you know, measure it up. Yes. What kind of yes?
Well, you know, yes.
A true yes. Like sometimes you just know.
Not a yes, but a yes beyond the words. Why yes?
Yeah. We've talked about a lot, and it's been sort of philosophical, sort of spiritual, and I love these types of conversations, and I want to make sure that we covered everything that you think is important.
Is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to share?
No, I'm grateful whenever I can have, you know, one of these kinds of conversations. Great. I haven't been a podcast guest many times, so it's a real privilege to be invited to your show, and I've learned more about myself just by grappling with some of these questions in real time and hearing the things coming out of my mouth, and like, hmm, I want to press into that more, or what does that mean by that?
I want to explore that more. So I can't think of any topics that I still want to cover because, gosh, I feel like we cover it a lot, mostly because I talked and rambled on a lot.
No, I think it was great. And thank you so much for that. Like, I'm honored that you came on the show. I was so excited for you to come on. So thank you for being here.
Yeah, thank you, Brandi.
Join the conversation!
Feel free to share your own experience and let me know if you have any questions in the comments.
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Hi, I’m the founder of Human Amplified. I’m Brandi Fleck, a recognized communications and interviewing expert, a writer, an artist, and a private practice, certified trauma-informed life coach and trauma recovery coach. No matter how you interact with me, I help you tell and change your story so you can feel more like yourself. So welcome!
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