Photo provided by Justin Groce of The Restore Clinic.

This is a transcript of the conversation between myself, Brandi Fleck, Host of the Human Amplified podcast, and Justin Groce, owner of the Restore Clinic in Cookeville, TN and expert on Men’s Health.

If you’d rather listen than read, you can do that here, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere else you get your podcasts.

What does being human mean to you?

I think it ultimately comes down to understanding that we're flawed and that as humans that are flawed, one thing that separates us from like other sentient beings is the fact that we can understand it, we can arrive with our flaws, but unlike other beings, you know, we can accept it and we can either work with it, we can take responsibility for it. You know, we can accept that we aren't perfect, but at the same time, we can actually evolve. So I think ultimately comes down to how we meet ourselves, how we arrive to ourselves, how we are willing to be halfway, because it doesn't matter what point in your life you're at.

I mean, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, whatever. At some point, we understand that, you know, our time is very limited, and what we do with that limited amount of time, that's what, you know, that's what creates our story. That's what creates our narrative.

I think a lot of people will kind of get to the point, they get content, they get stuck, they accept the flaws that they have, but they don't really like, they don't use it as a motivation or something to work with, or some kind of structural foundation to change their life, change their narrative. But being human, ultimately, to some, I mean, we're flawed, it is what it is, you know, and that's totally cool. I think a lot of us aren't really given the tools, given the behavior modifications, given the understanding, given the education, given the foundation of how to work with this, especially through our formative years.

That's what people like you come in. You can help people address these and change their narrative, change their story. Because again, that's just who we are, we're flawed and that's okay.

And so yeah, I just think being human means we're flawed and we can accept it or we can't, and we can use it to help better ourselves.

Justin, welcome to the show. And I haven't said this to you before now, but I am actually like really excited to talk to you today.

Right on, I'm glad to be here, thank you.

Yeah, it's great to see you. And let's dive in. So you just told us what being human means to you.

How does your passion for men's health fit into your definition, or does it?

Well, absolutely, because first of all, like a lot of these men I work with, and for your audience who just introduced me to, I work and I own a men's health clinic, and I work with men particularly who have low testosterone. So for a lot of these men, they've lived their entire lives with such a low level that after we treat them, it's almost like we're seeing them become another person. So for a lot of these men, it is like the second, it's the second chapter of their life.

A lot of these men, it's almost like they're going through puberty again, because I work with them, excuse me, we'll optimize their hormones, optimize their nutrition, their diet. And then you'll see them become something that they've only fathomed that they could possibly have been. That's the beauty of working with a lot of these patients is because they've lived a lot of their lives.

It's such a low level that their perspective, their interpretation of their environment is perceived only being as a man who's suffered from an endocrine disease his entire life. So one of the biggest characteristics of a guy who does have healthy, robust, optimal levels of testosterone is that he demonstrates a high level of hegemony, which is a characteristic that's the best way to sum it up or interpret it as he has a preponderance or predilection towards leadership and family-oriented type qualities. But if you've got a guy who's been suffering his entire life, he's lived, to be quite frank and be quite honest, he's lived the majority of his life almost like a prey animal.

He doesn't know who he is, he doesn't have ambition, he doesn't have the drive, he doesn't have that robust vigor to go out and perceive what he wanted to be or what he interpreted himself to have been. So we work with these guys. We get their hormones dialed in, you'll see it.

They no longer have brain fog, a lot of them come off their antidepressants, a lot of them come off their anxiolytic medications, a lot of them come off their ADHD medications or stimulants. A lot of them actually go out there and try to be fathers. A lot of them pursue the careers that they never thought they were worthy of.

A lot of these guys go out there and they'll pursue having a wife, pursue having a family. These are the type of characteristics that a lot of these guys never even thought they could have had. So to watch them evolve from a shell of who they were to becoming the man who they deserve to be and the man they always wanted to be, that's my interpretation of how them becoming the human and their evolution throughout their life, that's how I interpret it.

And actually it's fascinating to see because like I said, you'll see a lot of these guys who've lived their entire lives almost like a prey animal. I mean, they're fearful. They have crippling anxiety.

They can't go into social settings. They can struggle to go to work. And then you get them optimized with their health and you see the confidence rise and you see them actually pursuing those things.

They deserve that, these people deserve to live the life that they deserve to pursue. So yes, that's an awesome question. I dig it.

Well, it's really interesting that testosterone has — it sounds like it touches so many aspects of their lives. Like…

I had no idea that testosterone was that big of a deal.

Sure, absolutely. Yeah, for instance, let's say metabolically, if you have low testosterone, your chance of having diabetes, it's about twice as much. In fact, about 20 million men in America have diabetes.

It's speculated that about 50% of them also are comorbid with low testosterone as well. In fact, there's some new guidelines, some new literature emerging showing that if a man does have diabetes, pre-diabetes, fatty liver disease, insulin resistance, metabolic disease of that nature, you should go ahead and draw his levels because the two do go hand in hand because historically, you think testosterone, you think abusive athletes, the stigma of an jacked, over-masculine, angry, vicious human being, but really, that's not the case. That's its own category.

Those are just people. Those are substance abusers. That has nothing to do with treating men who actually suffer from low testosterone.

And think of it this way, when you think clinical depression, it's speculated that about 30% of those men who do have clinical depression may have comorbid, low testosterone. So the two may go hand in hand, because testosterone acts like a serotonergic. It does transport serotonin presynaptically and postsynaptically across the terminals, across the neuron terminals.

It also does help modulate neuroplasticity in the brain. Particularly, it can work as well in the limbic system of the brain. And as you know, you're fully aware of this, but for your audience, the limbic system is a portion of the brain.

It's where a lot of your visceral emotions come from. Happiness, motivation, pleasure, reward, vigor, excitement, love, joy. Testosterone actually helps modulate your synaptic plasticity and can be involved in remodeling as well.

So again, you see these guys that have suffered their entire life, low levels, absolutely depressed, metabolic derangements, high cholesterol, high triglycerides, low Bowden density, crippling brain fog, zero sex drive, low sperm count. Yep, testosterone does play a role into all of that. So yes, it's more than simply get jacked, go the fights.

No, that's not what we're worried about. We're worried about the entire clinical constellation of symptoms that being low can actually cause.

I'm so glad that you brought up the substance abuse aspect and sort of differentiated between those two. Real quick, before we get into more of this, what's the difference between healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity?

So I don't really buy into the term toxic masculinity. I think if a guy's an asshole, he's an asshole straight up. I think if somebody is just going to be a complete jerk, they're going to be a douchebag, that's just who they are.

I mean, I'm just being completely real. There's some people that no matter what, I mean, you could say, Dave, you can put them on all the meds. It doesn't matter.

It is what it is. I'm guessing there's obviously some childhood root there. There's some kind of trauma, some kind of upbringing, and I will understand that.

I'm not going to involve myself with it, but I will meet people from a sense of understanding and know that we all have a reason why we behave the way we do. It is what it is. So when people say someone's being toxic, I'm just like, he's just an asshole.

I mean, it is what it is. Don't associate with him. Now, healthy, like I was saying, like a man that does have healthy levels, healthy, robust levels that are optimized, like I said, he does demonstrate a good level of hegemony.

He's very ambitious. He's goal-oriented. He wants to surround himself with his family, his kids, his community, his church, his career.

That's what we like. Those are the types of guys we work with. But the men who are abusive, again, testosterone has its negative stigma associated with it, that it's all about getting jacked.

It's about lifting weights. It's about being huge. Again, that's not what we deal with.

In fact, when we work with a lot of our guys, one of the first clinical symptoms that they report tends to disappear is brain fog, and they tend to feel in a better mood overall. Again, like I said, it does positively influence your serotonin, presynaptically, postsynaptically. Also, a lot of these guys don't have brain fog anymore.

They say they feel like mentally they're sharper, they can think clearer, and they wake up, and their acumen feels more intact. So yeah, that kind of differentiates them, the healthy and the unhealthy, so to speak.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, so let's focus on you for just a little bit.

What inspired you to focus on men's health, and why is it so important to you?

So, well, thanks for asking, because myself about 10-ish years ago, I was on a high amount of Adderall. I was like, this is not healthy. I should not need this to function.

This is not normal. You know, I shouldn't need it, you know, three, four times a day. I really shouldn't.

There's a root cause for everything. I took my health in my own account. I started drawing my own blood work.”

I started pulling my own labs, doing my own investigation. Low enough, my levels were practically non-existent, which explains why I was having horrible crippling anxiety. I couldn't focus.

I couldn't execute. I had very little discipline, ambition. So getting treatment is really, it's absolutely changed my life.

So when I work with these men, I know what they're going through. I know how they feel. I know what it feels like to have horrible anxiety just because you're driving or just because you're going to a restaurant that's crowded or just because you see a parking lot that's full.

I've been there. Freaking sucks. But now, as somebody who's getting actual therapy, who's been optimized for years, I like to relate with these guys.

And I could tell them, like when you go back to the question, what's like the evolution of humans? I've even seen it myself in the last five years, ten years, and I look forward to God willing, however long I'm going to live, I look forward to continue that evolution, but also want to continue watching these men evolve with it as well.

That is so cool. And something that is really important that you mentioned is sort of like…

Getting to the root of the problem, rather than just covering up the symptoms.

And like so many people don't really know how to get to the root.

Unfortunately, it's multifaceted. It really is. For some people, it's biological, it's biochemical.

For some people, their pituitaries just don't function. It doesn't produce FSH. It doesn't produce LH.

And those are two hormones that are principally related from the pituitary that stimulate healthy, robust production of sperm and testosterone. For some people, it's secondary in nature, meaning it's caused by whether it's an obesogenic diet, it's an environment polluted with endocrine disrupting chemicals. I think like pesticides, soaps, shampoos, clothes, stuff we wear, paints, plastics, preservatives.

I mean, those are all different types of EDCs. Even like cadmium, for instance, you know, ears, earrings. It's been shown, you know, putting that in children, especially young girls, you know, it's been correlated with like precocious puberty, you know, exposing people to all these EDCs in the environment.

Glyphosate, you know, we're talking about like weed killer, stuff like that. So it could be secondary nature, it could be your environment, it could be your nutrition, it could be some other comorbid disease, like I was talking about, even like diabetes. It could be, you know, hypothyroidism is another big one.

That one affects women so, so pretty much like eight times more than men. And sadly, you know, most of the women don't adequately get treated. And most of the women that do have it, in fact, actually have Hashimoto's, which is the autoimmune form.

And that one's actually correlated with having like celiac disease, as well as type 1 diabetes, which is autoimmune, you know, diabetes is where antibodies actually attack your pancreas. But I was getting a little tangential right there.

I'm really glad that you went down that road because it sounds to me like what you're saying is that it's different for everybody, that the root of the issue could be a combination of so many different things.

Absolutely.

It might be like you need some kind of individualized way to get to the bottom of it.

Just like I'm guessing with each one of your clients, I'm sure you work with them to try to figure out why, what's a trigger, and then use some behavioral therapies. Because like I said, some guys can just be real jerks, and hey, there's a reason why. It's not my reason to figure that out.

I will stay away from them. But yes, there's a root cause to everything. So we do take a bit of a functional approach to these patients.

It's also why we don't take insurance, is because insurance is more of a reactive type of health care system, if I should say, whereas we are private pay, which means the patient pays us directly, we treat them as we see fit, and we're not beholden to insurance guidelines or algorithms that they present to us. There's always a root cause. At least the vast majority of the time, there's usually a root cause.

Again, whether it's lifestyle, it's their environment, if it's genetics, then it is what it is, but we do our best to try to figure out what's going on with the patient, and then ultimately we just meet them halfway. I think that's the best approach to have.

Awesome. Okay. And you mentioned earlier that low testosterone is a thing that many of your patients come to you for.

What would you say is the most common problem that your patients arrive with?

In terms of presenting symptoms, it could be anything. I would say the most common would be probably lack of ambition, lack of drive, anxiety, and depression. Again, when people think testosterone, they think sex drive, get jacked, lift weights.

Most of these guys come to us almost clinically depressed or suffering from anxiety or lack of fulfillment in their life. Or honestly, they just don't feel like themselves anymore. They just say, I feel like a shell of who I am.

I've lost my identity. I've lost my character. I've lost my narrative.

I've lost my reason for being. Some guys feel like they honestly just feel completely hopeless or apathetic. So they reach out to us for what you would consider the quote unquote non-conventional or non-traditional symptoms of low testosterone.

And then we do a full clinical workup on them, roll out other hormone problems, roll out whether it's thyroid, roll out whether if there's some kind of metabolic issue going on as well. Because we want to make sure this could be a treatment that you could potentially be on indefinitely. So we want to make sure the patient is fully educated on that.

But we also want to make sure we roll out other possible aggravating, you know, extrinsic factors that could be contributing to it. But yes, in terms of like most common symptoms, it's not the conventional ones. It's usually like brain fog, apathy, or just, you know, just lost your identity.

Okay. And why do you think that... Well, I'm trying to think of how I want to phrase this, because it's like, well, depression and anxiety, they might not even know that low testosterone is the issue at first.

But why do you think depression and anxiety are such a common problem, especially for the men that you see?

You're right. Most people would not even think to correlate or associate the two. There's some studies that's showing that, you know, if you got some of this press, there could be upwards of about 30% chance that there could be a hormonal involvement.

Like there's actually some literature I was reading. It was like a retrospective medical review study in the VA. It was saying that based on retroactive evaluation medical records, guys who had testosterone levels of 150 or less, there's about a 30% chance that they met the criteria for a clinical depression, and guys with levels 350 or less had about a 20% chance of meeting the clinical criteria for major depressive disorder.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that testosterone does modulate a lot of your neurotransmitters like serotonin. Also, it will be involved in the upregulation, the activation of dopamine. But here's an interesting thing, though.

When you think dopamine, again, you think pleasure, reward, happiness, vigor, motivation, things of that nature. Testosterone is only going to stimulate the amount of dopamine that's worthwhile for the input that you got for it. So, for instance, like people that have substance abuse disorders, they're getting a quick dopamine hit.

Use whatever dopamine hit. People have pornography, addictive disorders. Boom.

Watch it. Whatever. Quick dopamine hit.

That dopamine hit was out of proportion to the effort that they put into it, so to speak. When you have a guy with low testosterone, then you address his needs, you get him optimized. His body is going to produce dopamine in a proportional response to the effort needed to get the dopamine.

So he's going to feel better about himself. If he goes out there and he gets a new career, he's going to feel pleasure from that. If he puts in hard work, let's say he gets his black belt, martial arts, he's going to get the dopamine that he deserves for the effort that he puts in.

That's one of the things about testosterone, how it modulates the neurotransmitter dopamine, is that it's going to give you what you deserve, but it's not going to give you what you don't need. That's where a lot of guys with substance abuse disorders and the discretion comes from actually people who abuse this versus people who use this for clinical needs. If that makes sense, I hope it does.

Yeah, that's really interesting. And I'm wondering, do you feel like there are any societal issues? I know you mentioned like hormone disruptors earlier, but like…

What else contributes to low testosterone?

That sounds like obviously environmental things can. I think a lot of it's our lifestyles, too, though. I mean, when you think of the quote, unquote, American, the traditional American lifestyle, you think, okay, well, we're going to watch Netflix about 20 hours a week.

We're probably not going to work out, but we're also going to work a sedentary job 40 to 60 hours a week. Let's add another 10 hours of commute to that. And we're eating nothing but processed foods.

I mean, unless you go to a farmer's market, you shop locally, you go your way, chances are you're going to eat some crap. I mean, it is what it is. Even when you're in a particularly cleaner diet or a better diet and being cognizant of what you're doing, still, I mean, there's some scotomas in your vision and how you perceive food.

So you're not always going to be able to get what you need. I think a lot of it does have to do with the fact that our lifestyles are not very conducive of having optimal hormone levels or optimal health levels. I mean, how much sunlight do most of us get?

I mean, on vacation, you know, maybe on the weekends a little bit here and there. How much activity do most of us get? Average American gets about 20 minutes of physical activity a day.

And that's not really enough to really stimulate a conducive hormonal, you know, pulse production. How much sleep do we get? Not a lot.

Again, you need at least seven, eight hours of sleep to really get good pulsatile releases even like growth hormone, which that's going to be a wonderful hormone that helps with healing, helps with repair, helps with collagen synthesis, helps with growth of hair, skin, nails. Essentially, it's a regenerative hormone is what that is. I mean, that's another back-end thing that we tend to shortchange ourselves, so to speak, due to our lifestyles.

So yeah, I think a lot of it ultimately does come down to our lifestyles.

That's what I was getting at with that question. I was curious about the external factors and more of the systems that we've created for ourselves.

How are external factors and systems impacting our evolution as humans?

Sure.

It sounds like there is an impact.

Oh, absolutely. It's speculated that by 2040, 2050, we're only 15, 20 years, that sperm production is going to be down significantly as well because testosterone levels are also associated with how much sperm you can produce. So from a reproductive standpoint, having a plant full of low testosterone men is not good for survival of mankind.

It's not because testosterone does stimulate sperm production, especially when your testicles, your lytic cells within the testicles produce testosterone. The testosterone within the testicles themselves stimulates neighboring cells called sertalli cells to produce sperm. If you don't get that natural, if you don't get enough production, you're not going to have enough to really stimulate robust amounts of sperm.

So from an evolutionary standpoint, this is me speculating right here. If you are having a society full of men who do suffer from low hormones and are endocrine dysfunctions, most likely to pass that on to their children, their daughters, their sons. And that's just going to kind of like continue to propagate that.

That makes sense for sure. So and this is a big question, but…

What would have to change in our society to put people like you out of a job?

Essentially, well, I wouldn't trust — I wouldn't leave it up to the government. That's for sure.

I definitely wouldn't. I'm willing to feel it doesn't feel like I think it ultimately comes down to personal accountability. Like you and me both.

I mean, we are out there, we're entrepreneurs, but at the same time, we're trying to help cultivate our patients to have a better lifestyle. We're trying to cultivate them to be in the healthiest they can be. If they're healthier by proxy, we would hope we would extrapolate that all the people that they're involved with, their families or spouses or children, their community.

We would hope we would extrapolate that that would carry over to them. Ultimately, it comes down to each individual person to make the change. Unfortunately, we're not all granted the same deck.

We're not granted the same cards. But no matter the situation that we're in, it's still our personal responsibility to address it. So yes, from a global perspective, it starts with each individual person, and then hopefully that spreads to our communities.

So yeah, people like us doing our thing, trying to help people, that's ultimately what it comes down to. And then if the patients take that, cool. Hopefully they teach that to the kids.

I was going to ask you, how would an individual like prevent themselves from arriving at low testosterone? But it sounds like a lot of the patients that you see actually have had it their whole lives. So…

How would you approach a preventative strategy?

The literature supports that the best ways to optimize your natural, your endogenous production would be getting adequate sleep. We're talking like seven to eight hours a night. If you have sleep apnea, you should probably address it because that's been shown in the literature to actually reduce testosterone production because a lot of it is produced while you're sleeping.

And it comes in a diurnal pattern. The largest production testosterone is going to come in the front end of the day, and this will taper off at the end of the day, and you hit a nadir at the end of the day, or nadir, however you want to pronounce it. If you have sleep apnea, you're not getting to stage three, stage four deep sleep, so therefore you're not going to produce it.

If you're attenuating the signal for producing more testosterone or growth hormone, then you're not going to get it. So getting quality sleep is of utmost importance. If you have sleep apnea, make sure that gets addressed, treat it, acknowledge it, do something about it.

Next thing is regular activity, regular exercise, regular exercise, particularly strength training. If you're doing lifting weights three, four times a week, that's plenty, but make sure you're hitting all the muscles. You're doing multi-joint compound lifts.

You're doing the big lifts, overhead presses, squats, dead lifts, bench presses, pull-ups, the big lifts that use as many joints as possible, many muscles as possible. That way you're going to get more of a stimulus, more production of testosterone. Also lifting weights also stimulates the production of growth hormone as well.

So that's going to help with the regenerative side of things, the recovery side of things. Nutritionally, making sure you're getting plenty of healthy fats in your diet. Avocado is wonderful.

Make sure you get some animal fats, micro foods that are very micronutrient-dense. Meats are particularly good. For people who don't like meat, make sure you're just getting a diversity of all the different plants that you can possibly get.

Especially lentils, those are great. Those are very, how should I say, accommodating in terms of the amino acid profile? Because if you're only living on a purely vegetarian diet, it's hard to get the full complementary amino acids that you need for protein synthesis.

So yes, you gotta lift weights, gotta get sleep, get good physical activity, and just avoid smoking, avoid alcohol, avoid vices as minimally as possible, because those things are also gonna naturally suppress your production as well. If you're having any mental health problems, try to address it in the best way you can. If you have to be on any kind of medications, the ones that are probably worst for sexual function, worst for testosterone production would be like the second generation antipsychotics.

Those ones are known for stimulating the increased production of prolactin, which is also gonna suppress testosterone production. Things like clozapine, risfordone. Risfordone is notorious for it.

So again, if you have to get on psych meds, minimal dosage, trying to dress your mental health is best you can. See a counselor, see a therapist, see somebody like yourself. Meditate, do yoga, do mindfulness practicing every single day.

Do what you can to really just take care of yourself the best you possibly can. Have a good support system. In fact, it's speculated that about 50% of men don't even have a best friend, which that's really sad.

And that brings up another whole other thing. If you fall in that category, get a dog. Seriously, silly as that may sound, I tell a lot of my patients, if you're lonely, consider getting a pet.

It makes a difference. People, even with pets, live longer. Because I think loneliness is one of the things that afflicts men more than we'd like to admit, especially older men.

I think men 75 plus, that's the second highest category of people who will commit suicide. The number one category of people who will commit suicide are men 85 plus. It's actually really sad.

And again, from a mental health standpoint, a lot of men struggle. Statistically, men attempt suicide three times more than women. Again, I think mental health is one of the things that will negatively impact the global perspective of one's health, especially if you're not willing to address or even acknowledge it.

And I try to open up that dialogue with all my patients. I try to encourage them to see a counselor, see someone to help them out.

Yeah, that's really interesting. And the point where you said something like 50% of men don't even have a best friend…

How do you make friends as a grown man?

If I knew the answer, we wouldn't have 50% of men out there, almost out there with no friends whatsoever. If I knew the answer, it wouldn't be. I think a lot of guys who do suffer from low testosterone, though, especially in their developmental years, their formative years, they have a hard time identifying who they are.

They have a hard time identifying their personality or understanding where they sit in society. Like I was saying earlier, if you are very low, if you're a very type of good-nettle, then you tend to look at life through the lens of more of a prey animal. I know it sounds very harsh, but it's kind of true.

Been there, done that. It sucks, it really does. Because you're fearful in situations that you otherwise shouldn't be fearful in.

You're afraid to take chances, you're afraid to take risks, you're afraid to pursue things that make you happy. And unfortunately, a lot of that translates to building relationships with other people. And I think a lot of the men who do suffer, they're scared to get relationships, they're scared to pursue them, a lot of them are scared to even just engage other humans, just on a normal communicative level like we're doing right now.

So I think that's the question. I mean, if we knew the answer to your question, why so many and how can we fix it, then we wouldn't have this issue in the first place.

Yeah. It sounds like it's related. It goes back to that mental health that you mentioned and maybe like some emotional health.

I know they're intertwined. Yeah.

I would definitely believe so because it does mold how you interpret other people and it does mold how you communicate with other people and how you're receptive to other people. And if you're fearful, you're anxious all the time, you don't know how to communicate. I mean, your default setting is fear.

It's panic attacks, it's retract, it's recluse, instead of open, engaging, going back and forth. So yeah, I think a lot of it can go back to the mental health side of things.

Where do you stand on holistic and natural treatments for raising testosterone

…like Maca and other supplements?

Most of them are very, very inconclusive. Most of them don't really help. Like for one, like Tonkat Olie, that one gets like, Rogan that always talks about Tonkat.

I mean, if you go back to look at the studies, yes, they'll say it does raise it by like 200%. But I mean, if your level's 100, you go up to 200, or if your level's 150, 200, you go up to 300, 350. That's really not robust.

It's not. It's like saying you're broke, you have $5, now you have 10, you're still broke. So a lot of those studies for those drugs, well, yes, they can increase the production.

It's not robust enough to eliminate the symptoms of low testosterone. And some of the people still, even if they raise it 100 points, 200 points, they'd still qualify for actually having clinically low levels. And they'll still qualify for still being symptomatic at it.

So yes, that's the thing about statistics. Statistics are nice, but a lot of times statistics has, there's a lot of guys behind it. There's some facades with certain statistics.

So if you actually, like I said, go back and look at the studies from these supplements, and they're not robust enough to actually like reduce symptoms or eliminate the hypogonadal state of the patient.

Gotcha. Okay.

We get lots of patients on them already. And they're like, man, I've been on the stuff. I've been taking it from GNC, you know, it's 150 bucks a month.

You can do it for six months. I'm like, dude, you might as well just throw your money away. It's not really working for you.

You see it all the time.

So you told me, so I saw on your website that you are LGBTQIA friendly, but you mentioned to me that your specific niche is cis men, basically.

Correct.

If you have a trans person come to you, what do you recommend?

Where do you refer them to? Things like that.

We used to actually treat like transgender patients. Like I mentioned previously, for malpractice purposes, it's not really just covered much anymore. It's really not, unfortunately.

So if I do have somebody that would qualify, I'd refer them to Plume, which is an online telemedicine company that treats them, as well as Folx, which is F-O-L-X. That's also an online telemedicine company. These are all private pay companies.

Some, I do think there will be more and more companies that are insurance accepting coming up in the near future. Now, I will say this. When you go with a private pay company, they're gonna most likely be more open to treating you more aggressively.

They're gonna be more open to treating your symptoms and not your numbers, so to speak. So when you look at Bloodwork, there's different ranges. Like for one, Quest Diagnostics, their testosterone range goes from 250 to 1,100.

There's another company called ZRT Labs. Their ranges goes from 400 to 1,200. LabCorp goes from 260 to 916.

So there's no standardization to the labs or the reference ranges of where one would qualify. So if you go with an insurance-based provider, they're going to make sure you stay at a certain number. You may clinically still have symptoms at the number.

Say if you come to me and your blood work says you're 250, you're low by all three standards, but maybe get to 700. Maybe insurance will say, let's get it to 600, 700. But you still have all the symptoms.

That means we need to go higher. But if you go with insurance, you're relegated to being stuck there. Now, that's why I say for transgender patients, I do recommend you go on the private pay route because they're going to make sure they treat your symptoms and they're going to make sure they're not treating your numbers, so to speak.

That's the way to go.

I'm really glad that you brought that up, that there's no standardization and that even if you are falling in what one lab considers a normal range, you could still have symptoms and need to be treated. So, my clients are private pay as well. I'm not a medical provider, so I can't take insurance, but the question of access is always a big thing.

What do you recommend for people who need this kind of support, but maybe don't have the means right away, or at all?

Sure, there's always gonna be people that need it but can't afford it. It's unfortunate, it's just the nature of the beast. There's always companies that can work with you.

We do our best to work with our clients, meet them halfway. We're actually one of the most affordable ones considering the national average for this type of therapy. You're looking at 200, 250 a month, and we're right around 130 to 150 a month.

So, we do our best to address the everyday person. We try to have competitive prices, but at the same time, affordable prices, because we're trying to help as many people out as possible. Not every company is going to operate on that model.

Some companies only charge 250 a month, 350 a month. I'll say even like the plumes and all that, you look at maybe 200 bucks a month, and it depends on how many medications you're going to be on. So, if you need just estrogen, if you need progesterone, if you need testosterone, these different companies will have different flexible plans.

So, there's always something that you can work with. Now, if you do have to go through the insurance route, say that's your only option, you're probably looking at easily six to 12 months of hurdles to jump before you can get treated. So, I mean, there's that.

Sometimes you have to go, like when I was working with patients who, you know, had gender dysphoria, we were helping them with their gender affirming care. Illegally, we had to get them to see clinical counselor, get signed off, you know, that they're ready, that they know what they're getting into, know what they're doing for the therapy. Then we would treat them.

Insurance was very finicky. A lot of times, they wouldn't cover all their care. Like, say, if I got a patient, I want to put them on estrogen and progesterone insurance, I'd be like, nah, we'll just give them, we'll give the patient just this.

But, you know, they need this and this and this. So that's kind of, we left that model. We just stuck to private pay only.

But again, I mean, it's unfortunate, but, you know, not everybody's going to be able to have the same access that other people will. It's just the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

Yeah. Yeah. I've actually been trying to, like, brainstorm ways to, like, create more access.

I feel like it'll be up to us, like the entrepreneurs, to come up with some kind of new way of doing things. But it's an interesting question, and it's definitely a hurdle. But yeah, so Justin, like, I've loved everything that you've brought up today.

I feel like it's been really helpful.

Is there anything I haven't asked you that you think is important to share?

The biggest thing is that for most men are just horrible about getting health care or even addressing their health needs. I hate to say, but I mean, for most men, it's usually their mom or their wife is a gatekeeper of their health. It's weird because it's a weird dichotomy because like women are very more in tune with their health.

They pay attention more. They have questions. They follow up.

Guys are usually like, they wait until they have a heart attack. They're like, okay, can you bail me out real quick? Like, that's what they do.

It's, I hate to say, but for the not seen all men, but historically, a lot of men are pretty bad. It's either A, I can't get an erection or B, I'm having a heart attack. Help me out right now.

I think a lot of men need to be more proactive. Healthcare, especially the insurance-based model is not really gonna be looking out pretty proactively. It's a very reactive system.

It waits until you're sick. Then it says, okay, let's give you a medication. All right, let's follow up with your PCP in six to 12 months.

Well, hell, so much can change in six to 12 months. We, as a private-paying company, we follow up with our clients on average three to four times a year. We're getting blood work three to four times a year.

We allocate hour-long appointments for our clients. So I mean, when people say, well, it's 130, 150 bucks a month, it's a lot, but at the same time, you're paying 800 bucks a month to your insurance company, and they're only paying for one well visit a year, they're not gonna give you a full comprehensive blood panel. For us, 150 bucks, you can get a full comprehensive blood panel, we can check your liver function, kidney function, thyroid function, we can check your cholesterol, glucose, we can check your vitamin D, we can check your B12 levels, we can check your thyroid, we can check your testosterone levels, we can check all of it, lipids, cholesterol, we can check all that, 150 bucks.

But meanwhile, people are still coming to mind, well, it's private pay, I would rather pay insurance 800 bucks a month so they can check one lab panel once a year and then say, I still got a $5,000 deductible meet to see anything else. So I think, yes, I think you bring up a good point. Entrepreneurs like us, the small business like us, are filling the void where a lot of the big medicine is kind of failing everybody else in society.

One person at a time, maybe we can get there. And I agree with you earlier when you said sort of like there's a ripple effect, that if one person does it, that has an impact on other people and their families and their communities. I mean, I believe in that too.

So on that note, please let our listeners know, how can they find you and your work and your clinic?

Yes, our clinic is called The Restore Clinic, and we are based in Tennessee. We're licensed in several different states, telemedicine license, but yeah, for Tennessee folks, just hit us up. Check us out if you want to follow us on social media.

We put a lot of content on YouTube and TikTok, and our handle is at The Restore Clinic. So yeah, just reach out to us, website, restoreclinic.com. Simple as that, easy peasy.

Perfect. I'll put all of that in the show notes for everybody who wants to go check out those links. Yeah.

And Justin, thank you so much for being here today.

Yeah, it was fun. Thank you for having me.